Really good job Archi, it's really good to see other people's comments.
Now we have to see what comes out of this.
EDIT: Wow just 5 posts....are people avoiding this thread? o.O
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probably just following the thread rules :)
i honestly read only about half the conversations, and most i agree with what people say... nice to see people talking about the problems.
OOH! IDEA!
So, Clanners and other HARDCORE people hate LM, right? Lets bust a cap in that image of us as a skill hatey server with the LM OPEN!
Host a clan tournament, double elimination, with any team of 6 being allowed to enter. We could get a good 20 teams or so up on it, get publicity from Zunni, throw it on rr.org, and breath some life back into the competitive game all at the same time!
We could also take demos of the games, analyse the outcomes, and apply some of the things we've discussed as far as balance issues to it. We'd become a microcosm of the entire NS community, and be able to go to the devs and state our case for what needs changed and how in an erudite and effective manner...
We could change the whole :D ing world!
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The only reason that clanners and such seem to hate us is because of the ban list. LM's banned a lot of skilled players, and a lot of people that can't sit back and say "Oh hey, i was banned, oh well," no, they just shoot their mouths off badmouthing the server. LM has a ban list featuring the likes of #cri and exi, without a doubt two of the biggest named clans out there, and if they say it's a bad, people actually listen.
The issue is that out of everyone that gets banned, the people in the clans are the ones that kick up a fuss, and unfortunately they're the voices that people will hear. Some random NSPlayer getting banned isn't going to get listened to by any of the NS community, but as soon as you see #cri banned, you'll see a negative reaction from the community as a whole just because they can't shut up and take it like a man.
People aren't just banned because they're in a clan, they're banned for breaking the rules.
The servers that are clearing bans are *not* dying. NSA has over 4 servers, and are full 24/7. If you call that a dying community, then what community is thriving?
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I know you wanted us in the other thread, but I'll respond here.
IMO, NSA is popular for all the custom plugins and maps. Pretty much anything I can think of is on their server ;)
The servers that are clearing bans are *not* dying. NSA has over 4 servers, and are full 24/7. If you call that a dying community, then what community is thriving?
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I know you wanted us in the other thread, but I'll respond here.
IMO, NSA is popular for all the custom plugins and maps. Pretty much anything I can think of is on their server ;)
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NSA is popular because of the player count.
If a CS nub tries a mod, what are they going to do? Filter servers by players. Even though NS sucks with to many people, thats where most of the nubs are going to go, big servers.
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NSA classic server has no plugins besides a reserve slot. no custom maps on that server. The combat server is another story. And newbies go to big servers, not just 'nubs' as you call them.
I like LM for the Blockscripts, cause it gives more of a challenge. Its not fun to get pistoled as a skulk immediatly with 5 bullets. etc etc. I have fun explaining the game to people who don't know it once and a while. Not counting how hard it is to get into LM when i want to play. :-p
thats the reason for teh command, hitting a button and shooting off 5 rounds from your pistol is not a skill, its just dumb. with it off, people complain and cry about people who can auctaly fire 5 pistol shots rapidly and call them a script whore. so i think its better with the command on, it just makes people not able to assume as much.
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Sometimes i am in the mood for scripts, and sometimes I am not :-p I think it has its uses, and LM is one of the best servers that has it enabled.
I don't think anyone's about to ban you for a statement, so long as its not a flame.
My opinion is covered in the big text file, I can see bits and pieces of my viewpoint there.
Ban system works, the only real problem is when people decide that the server rules are dumb and therefore feel exempt to following them. Justification of server settings/rules etc is all very well but lets not forget the example of the NS.org forums - one thread over 30 pages long full of a circular argument. Some people will not be happy with a "bs_1" server on pure principle, and will not accept any argument against their viewpoint. You can't have a mature discussion with these people.
I always thought it was to LMs credit that the banhammer is wielded against the nub and the elite with equal vigour. Its just the scores of nameless griefers never make a thread in PR about it, or run off to the NS.org forums to start a quest for the holy grail. Sure, some of the NS community will think "ogm tehy are banning teh clannorz" but anyone who's been on the server knows its not the case.
Look at servers where clanners have wilfully been banned on sight. They're clearing all their bans because they're dying. Yet LM is still pretty full and has a community with a broad range of skills, despite the propaganda of being a banhappy server. I'm not saying the server is perfect, but on some level SOMETHING is being done right.
As for the downward slide in NS gaming, I lay the blame squarely at the feet of a less than exciting B5, to the point where if I have a spare 15 minutes I'd rather blast through C&C than have a formulaic and stilted game. In fact I'm taking a break from C&C now, go figure.
I'll say this for LB and the admin team, I remember a game where I threw a hissy fit because I believed that we were being horribly spawncamped with the game being dragged out. Now, I wasn't banned, I wasn't griefed, I wasn't called a noob.. we had a rational discussion afterwards, shared our viewpoints, and it was all settled amicably. So anyone who picks up a line where LB is the powercrazy admin of banhammering doom, and means it SERIOUSLY, is working on a flawed premise in my eyes. Not unless a switch has been flicked sometime recently. And yes I have played games alongside the Onos.
"<Anonymous37> You wouldn't come over as a guest in his house and then whine that his "no feet on the couch rule" is lame and he should throw it out"
Gold star for that person. I know some people don't like the concept of "my way or the highway" but thats how the world works. NS is made the way Flayra wants it, LM run how LB likes it run, Star Wars is made as Lucas sees fit. Sure, we might not all like how it works, but that doesn't give us any real right to having them change it to suit us.
Anyhow, roll on B6. Hopefully it'll break up the formulaic play and make things a bit more enjoyable for us all.
Edit - I have no beef with Mal (not on my end), tbh it was fun to have a fellow person who suffered slotkicks and having to stay awake at unholy hours to get into a game. But I don't run the server. Fair enough I'm not on the server much anymore but jobhunting, dull play, and 7am starts mean I can't afford to stay awake late at night for sporadic gaming sessions of varying enjoyment.
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As to a specific line- "Anyone on the server knows that we don't ban clanners", I guess you haven't thought of me, Malibu Stacey, Leggionnaired, or anyone that doesn't look at clanners as a whole as bad people. Its obvious LM hates clanners, and I think its BS- and I've played on the server just as much, if not more, than 90% of the community. Malibu Stacey, when he wasn't banned, was there even more than me, and after 4+ months, STILL never got his RS, but instead, was banned for something he said in another channel altogether. And he was one of the prime things that made the server a better place, because unlike most of you, he believed that if people knew about the problems, they'd try and fix them. Sadly, because he had a vet icon and was a known clanner, no one listened to him. And because I am a known clan sympathizer, and go about things in a crude way, no one listened to me. The only reason people listened to Archi is because A: he's an admin, and B: he basically kissed ass to get them to say things(no offense Arch <3). I WAS telling everyone 2+ months ago how LM needs to clean itself up badly, and learn its old role all over again, because I knew that the regulars weren't liking it as much overall- especially when so many were leaving for piss poor reasons.
It just isn't right that we have to put up with BS rules at a place that didn't used to have them. Because as your anology from 37 about "You wouldn't go into someone's home and say the no feet on the couch rule was lame", I could equally say you BETTER say somethings wrong when you go into someone's house and find the dad raping the daughter. Sure, its a rule that she must get raped every day, but is it right? No, not even if she enjoys it. Saying we should just abide by rules doesn't make anything better.
Legionnaired I like your idea. To me the idea of a perma ban is a little harsh for one infraction. I understand why a reg would get banned for spawn camping or recycling base, but perma banning a random puber for doing something that is common on other servers seams a little harsh. This is especially true after Steam came out and people can no longer read the rules while joining. I vote for a week temp ban on pubers who brake the rules and only use prema bans on complete jerks and res sloters who knowingly broke the rules. I know I'm not a admin, but that method seams a little more fair to me.
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I too agree, and am willing to put myself up for public humiliation!(its fun!)
[...]A pistol script, 3 jump or leap bite isn't faking skill, if they beat you with it then they'll beat you without it.[...]
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I won't try to put words in your mouth, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like "scripts don't matter at all" in other words. If that assumption is wrong, please tell me what it DOES mean. If that assumption is correct, then nobody should mind that their scripts don't work, because they'll be able to perform just as well without them. Heck, they should thank us. It's like a man walking with a crutch all the time until the day somebody kicks it away and he discovers that he can walk perfectly fine without it.
[...]And with special_ being taken out, I just don't see scripts being that much of an issue.
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Currently though, mp_bs is what blocks special_. Deactivate mp_bs and you allow people to use special_. That's the worst part about mp_bs, that it's a single package: There are only two choices, opt-in and opt-out. You can block special_ without blocking everything.
A script that drops a Defense Chamber and then tells your team that there's another DC active? That is customization. A button you can push that asks for a medpack and gives a text alert for the commander? Customization. A button that will switch you to leap, attack, then switch to bite in a thousandth of a second? That is NOT CUSTOMIZATION.
...
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Saying all scripts are bad is just as bad as when people say "Video games make killers."
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I don't think ura ever said ALL scripts. If you are indeed replyingto ura.
To be concise, scripts should be removed from the game, you are not a developer, you should not take game play into your own hands, play the game the way it was meant to be played.
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So the developers should dictate exactly how the game should be played? Does it somehow offend them if someone plays differently then how they personally would enjoy playing it the most? The developers are providing a framework for playing games. We're the ones actually playing.
When people come up with new strats, is that playing it in a way that the developers invisioned it? No. They're changing how they play the game to make it more enjoyable for themselves. And if the developers wanted to control the game so much, I could just as easily argue the opposite from the standpoint that they specifically left alien bunnyhopping in, and only recently did servers start choosing on their own whether they wanted to block scripts.
Scripting in NS seems unnecessary, I really can't see any advantage to it, and if there is one it must be small however I consider it to be unfair.
I don't use any scripts, never have and never well, I don't even know how to do it and I don't really want to. I play just fine without them, and so should everyone else, you do not need some extra boost, whether it has a placebo effect or not.
Seems all the scripts are good for is causing arguments and casting doubt on a player’s skill. I have to wonder why the problem was not headed off and scripting was not disabled from the beginning of NS. Now that many people have them removing the function would be much harder.
To be concise, scripts should be removed from the game, you are not a developer, you should not take game play into your own hands, play the game the way it was meant to be played.
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If the developer didn't want us to use scripts, THEY WOULD RESTRICT US FROM USING OR MAKING SCRIPTS. SIMPLY USING THE COMMAND "alias" WOULD BE MADE ILLEGAL. Notice, THEY HAVE NOT DONE THAT. Also note, that as for the sv_blockscripts, it turns out that ALL of the devs were against it, sans maybe one(Voog, and thats a maybe). Why did they implement it then? Because it was a highly requested feature.
Seriously here, half of you that are making these allogations seem to have never touched a script. The only scripts I use are for chatbinds(Roger that! Res tower or phase here! Orders? You don't see that everyday....thank God.), and otherwise, I'm without. But guess what? I don't look down on them either. You know why? They don't affect your skill. Theres no script in the world that could help you aim. Theres no script in the world to make you a better fade. Theres no script in the world that could be actually useful to make you blink/swipe or leap/bite. Theres no script in the world that is enabled in Half-Life that would give someone an unfair advantage. Using scripts is the way the game is meant to be played. If it wasn't, they would hardcode aliasing out, now wouldn't they?
The first is that as of late, the various rules have just been piling up, and the no-tolerance is wearing a little thin. As an example of such a rule, we're playing a game of combat and suddenly I hear that a dictate has been announced that there will be no more sporing of marine spawn anymore. I'm a lerk, the marines are being pressured in their base, and suddenly I'm castrated into ineffectiveness because I'm scared that I'm going to spore the wrong place and get the bant stick.
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That happened on this server?
Its like spending 2 hours working so that you can buy that MX1000 mouse,[snapback]35122[/snapback]
Funny, the MX1000 that I ordered October 16th just arrived yesterday, and I love it :)
Anyhow, on to my post. I'm not counted in the big-anonymous-file (I'm not on IRC all that often right now, I go through periods where I'm on IRC 24/7 for a few weeks or months, then periods where I rarely use it). I don't mind posting my comments without the veil of anonymity.
Point form, because I so love using it:
1) Overall, the server is not going downhill. There are some things that need changing, but that is by no means an indication of it going downhill
2) There have been less players playing on the server recently. One way to solve this is by re-instituting the reserved slot reccomendation forum again. This gave everybody a chance to vote on a potential RS member, instea of the current system where they're just reccomended in a thread and no real vote takes place. The forum was brought back because there were too many RS players; the server was full too often. Well, the server needs more players and more regs, and RS are a great way to build a strong community of regs. It's 10PM on saturday night and the server is only 12/17. It should be full, and more RS players will help with that
3) The administration needs to seriously re-examine their position on combat maps. Right now, it seems the reason they were removed is simply because LB or some other admins don't like them. Honestly, LB rarely plays on the server, and the admins make up only a small portion of the players that play on LM. The reason of any one admin not liking combat should have no bearing at all in any decision regarding combat.
Some of the regs don't like combat either. That's understandable. However, the proof is in the pudding that most people don't mind combat. Take this for example, every time there were, say, 4 or 6 people on the server, and an admin switched to combat, the server filled up quickly. If combat is such a big draw to the server, obviously more people like it than not. I don't like 24/7 combat, but I also enjoy the occasional game of Combat mixed in with normal NS. Look at it this way, LM needs more regs and players, and Combat is a great way to help fill up the server and attract new potential regs.
4) We need votes back in. RS members used to be able to start new votes, to change maps and other minor things on the server. this was working great, but was then removed because people wanted to play Combat, and were voting for combat maps. LB or some other admins don't like combat, so voting was removed. That is frankly stupid logic. Voting helps keep the server fresh when there aren't any admins around, and is nothing but good for the server. Removing voting as it was just harms the community, and there's no reason it should be removed. give the players what they want.
5) Here's my position on the whole script blocking thing. It's simple. I like the block, and would rather scripts were disabled, as there's no legitimate reason to have them. However, it's not a big issue, and I don't really care either way if they're blocked or not. My opinion is that they SHOULD be blocked, but if they are or aren't, meh.
6) Friendly fire is bloody annoying. I know I'm in the minority here, but it just gets in the way and makes the game less fun. It was originally put on to counter bugged handgrenades in combat, ironically enough, but once that bug was fixed was never removed. In fact I seem to recall there having been a poll done where at the time the majority of people wanted FF off, but the admins ignored it. At least that's how I remember it, I could be wrong and the poll could have gone the other way. I can't find it.
7) The spawncamping rules are draconian and need changing. As it stands now, every single game sees players doing something that the rules would call spawncamping, and even the admins in the server break that rule, because of how broad it is. I mean, the rule basically says you can't shoot the enemy in their own base, because you have to be shooting a structure. When nobody follows the rule because of how broad it is, that's a hint. Take the hint. Change the rule. Banning true spawncamping is OK, banning regular gameplay under an uberumbrella definition of spawncamping is NOT OK.
8) I'm going to sum up my entire position by saying this: the administration of the community should not be making decisions based on their personal preferences. They should instead make decisions based on what is best for the community. Things like removing combat to the extend that admins can't even switch to the maps, or removing voteing, that just hurts the community, and is frankly selfish. Admins exist to make sure the players have a good time, not to make sure they have good times themselves. If you don't want to make the sacrifices that come with being an admin, step down and become a regular player.
PS: As an afterthought, I don't give a damn if you as players don't like Combat. If more than half the players on the server at any given time want to play combat, then let them. If you're not on the server, why should you care if it's playing combat? Come to think of it re-adding player/RS initiated voting would fix this right up.
Its like spending 2 hours working so that you can buy that MX1000 mouse,[snapback]35122[/snapback]
3) The administration needs to seriously re-examine their position on combat maps. Right now, it seems the reason they were removed is simply because LB or some other admins don't like them. Honestly, LB rarely plays on the server, and the admins make up only a small portion of the players that play on LM. The reason of any one admin not liking combat should have no bearing at all in any decision regarding combat.
4) We need votes back in. RS members used to be able to start new votes, to change maps and other minor things on the server. this was working great, but was then removed because people wanted to play Combat, and were voting for combat maps. LB or some other admins don't like combat, so voting was removed. That is frankly stupid logic. Voting helps keep the server fresh when there aren't any admins around, and is nothing but good for the server. Removing voting as it was just harms the community, and there's no reason it should be removed. give the players what they want.
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Server admins have been able to switch to co maps for awhile now. In fact, I did today, when there were only four people on, and it filled up pretty quick. We can start votes to see if people want combat too, so... Oh, and this also means that the maps weren't removed (and they never were). :)
4) We need votes back in. RS members used to be able to start new votes, to change maps and other minor things on the server. this was working great, but was then removed because people wanted to play Combat, and were voting for combat maps. LB or some other admins don't like combat, so voting was removed. That is frankly stupid logic. Voting helps keep the server fresh when there aren't any admins around, and is nothing but good for the server. Removing voting as it was just harms the community, and there's no reason it should be removed. give the players what they want.
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this was removed because too many votes were started by rs members for maps like nancy over and over again not combat and to my knowledge we were never able to start votes for combat. to be completely honest combat is not as fun as it was assumed it would be when it was announced and the first teaser screenshots appeared.
Seeing as in the upcoming version of NS sieges will no longer do damage to players, not only will Marines have to deal without the additional blast damage of a siege cannon but they'll have a tougher time holding that all-important siege location.
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This annoys me on how many people don't understand what that darned annoucement said. >_<
In b5 sieges do 165 blast damage. This means 165 damage to all players and double that for structures, 330.
In b6 sieges do 330 non-blast damage only to structures. The only change here is they don't hurt players, they still do the same damage to strutures >_<
Imagine in one of the -Craft games you have found someones outpost and you start attacking. They keep building units to try and counter/rebuild defences but you keep take them out every time they appear... or do you? Maybe there should be a rule where you aren't allowed to kill units less than 5 seconds old, otherwise OMGSPAWNCAMPFTW!!GG!!
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This goes along with what I said in the HL2DM magnum thread. When you are killing NPCs it is completely different from killing a player. An indescript enemy in a single player game has no feelings and no one behind it. Units in a multiplayer RTS, although there is player behind them, are not THE player's unit, as it is in FPS games. If someone "spawncamps" your units being produced you can bring in units from somewhere else. Some games even have the ability to garrison units inside the production facility upon creation, allowing you to build up a number before releasing them. When you have an FPS game where the player only has one unit, and when it is dead there is nothing at all he can do, it becomes annoying and you run into the issue of sportsmanship.
Say your running a race, sure, you could trip the runner next to you right off the line to gain an advantage. But is it good sportsmanship to do so and basicly remove the competition?
but wait, he pays for the server so I guess we have no choice but to hold or toungues for find somewhere else to play[snapback]35292[/snapback]
I thought the point of this thread was to find out what people don't like about the server. Holding our tongues doesn't accomplish anything.
Usually, the bans I've seen that are questionable in nature are ones where the admin has applied the NO LLAMA rule or one that leads to a bit of interpretation. The reason people claim it was made up is 1. The admin might not have publically made the statement it is not allowed, or otherwise explained what happened, or 2: There was a disagreement between the player and the admin about the application of a certain rule (i.e. spawncamping), in which case the admin wins. If the player banned disagrees, that's what the PR forum is for. If a player disagrees, bring it to IRC, or email servers@lunixmonster.org
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Yes, that is exactly what happens sometimes. If the player wants to know what he did wrong, go the PR forums (although they should know already; if they don't know, they should have read the rules; and it's not like this sever's rules aren't well-known after all these debates, etc.). Don't go onto IRC to discuss it; go to the Public Relations forum. We do not want a debate over a ban in IRC please (it's meant to be a laid back place).
Seeing as in the upcoming version of NS sieges will no longer do damage to players, not only will Marines have to deal without the additional blast damage of a siege cannon [Ed - as in on players when assaulting a Hive] but they'll have a tougher time holding that all-important siege location.
This annoys me on how many people don't understand what that darned annoucement said. >_<
In b5 sieges do 165 blast damage. This means 165 damage to all players and double that for structures, 330.
In b6 sieges do 330 non-blast damage only to structures. The only change here is they don't hurt players, they still do the same damage to strutures >_<
What? Where exactly did I say or imply that? Oh right nowhere. OK <_<
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As you indicated in the quote of yourself you were referring the damage done to players. However I read "Marines have to deal without the additional blast damage of a siege cannon" as referring to the damage being reduced because they don't do "blast damage".
It was simply my misunderstanding because you used a term which refers to a damage class, and coupled with the many times I've read people complaining because they thought siege damage was being reduced. So I guess my new point is be careful with the terms you use :p
*A Boojum Snark exits thread stage-left never to return
(why did I ever post >_> I hate getting into threads like these)
Second, if someone spawncamps you in an rts, would you not say you find it mildly annoying that he's in the position to end the game but has instead decided to whittle your peon units while he builds a Tactical Fusion Cube/Dreadnought Army/Battlecruiser fleet in order to end the game in a humiliation win?
Wouldn't you rather they just roll in and finish it?
I've said it before, NS is not a game where 2 skilled players camp the hive with med/ammo spam in order to allow the other players to cap every node, get HA, and train into the hive. Yes, it can be done, but its not meant to be done.
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Team Starcraft games often devolve to this: You mass units with teammates and focus on one enemy player. You blow through easy defenses and bypass anything else, get straight to his peon line, and wipe it out, preferrably while killing the central structure (Hive, CC, Nexus). This slows them down significantly, if not putting them out of the game. In NS this translates into 2 things: Hitting RTs or cutting a hive down in fast fashion. The way the spawncamping rules are set up you can be banned for doing either or these. I completely ignore built hives as a marine on LM because I know some admin who doesn't like me much will take notice and relieve me of my slot on the server, even if I'm not doing anything.
The last time I checked NS is a RTS based game played out with FPS units, it still has strategy involved. Completely cutting off the enemy team's resflow is catastrohpic to their morale and their ability to wage war, and constant base pressure is a classic RTS strategy to prevent expansion and prevent attacks. If you remove that suddenly aliens have a free space that they can be in and expect little to no retaliation. So what you're starting to do is limit the marine team's options even more than they are already limited.
A spawncamp just to delay the game is ridiculous (when it's clearly over and they simply won't kill the hive when they have the ability to do so) and should be punished. A spawncamp with an objective in mind that help's secure a marine team victory should not be punished by server admins. Often spawncamps delay the alien team so more marines can arrive, or so they can complete an objective. Aliens can hit marine start and force the marine team to either come back to base or beacon, why can't marines do the same? It's a tactic that while annoying to the person being spawncamped, will 1) Teach them the importance of scouting out and preventing people from reaching the hive to begin with (critical for stopping shotgun rushes) and 2) Make people think of the big picture of how the game is going, and what they should be doing to help the team. Keeping marines from going into the hiveroom enforces poor gameplay in this way.
rad4Christ,Dec 6 2004, 04:20 PM]It's my impression that MP_BS will always remain 1. If you want to discuss and inform the community on the legitimacy of certain scripts, by all means go ahead. I do agree with Keyser and the rest, certain scripts are absolutely harmless. But I still want BS set on 1. Why? Personal preference. I mean, that's what draws you to a server and keeps you there. Personal preference. And the personal preference at the servers management level is MP_BS 1. Just because players want to change it, does not mean LB has to. If you take issue, there are quite a few communities with BS 0 on them. I'm not trying to sound harsh, but you can't come into a community, and try to change the community to your personal preferences. You have to concede from time to time. I don't really care for the spawncamping rule mumbo jumbo, but I abide by it.
Why do I say this? Because I've said it, TAK has said it, and plenty of us are thinking it. if you want to discuss spawncamping or MP_BS, create another thread. This one is a GENERAL thread about things that the community needs to work on. So far, we back into the same old arguments, and I'm sorry, but we need to find adequate concessions to make these persistent issues come to a resolve, and we need to do it in another thread. Keep this one to the issues raised by Archi and his work, is the community dying?What is TLM known as in the wider community. What can we do to bring in fresh players and regs, not being biased to one skill level or another? Should we unban certain individuals that have broken the rules in the past and offer a clean slate? What can our admins/server do to communicate the rules in a clearer, concise way to ensure people understand and follow them?
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Your very argument there is right on the topic that I brought up earlier...
Why? Personal preference. I mean, that's what draws you to a server and keeps you there. Personal preference. And the personal preference at the servers management level is MP_BS 1. Just because players want to change it, does not mean LB has to.
This attitude will kill the community. Admins should not HAVE a personal preference, and if they do, nothing should come of it!
You know what? As I mentioned earlier, I want mp_bs 1. But if the only reason that it is 1 is because of the admin's preferences, then a poll needs to be done, and the setting changed or not changed based on THAT. You said it yourself, this is a COMMUNITY. The admins doing things like this because of how they like it doesn't fit in with a community.
I'm going to reiterate it; being an admin means sacrifices, one of those is you might have to do things or put up with things you don't enjoy, if it's the will of the greater community.
I agree with all that Adj says.
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Same, expect I still think that spawncamping in general is just not fun, and shouldn't be allowed. However, spawncamping while you're building seiges or something? Fine in my book.
"Not being fun" doesn't disqualify something from being effective and a valid tactic. I bet many people would say it's not fun to face me as lerk but that doesn't mean I should be banned from lerking, does it? Of course not, which is why "not being fun" shouldn't be an automatic reason to ban spawncamping.
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Facing you as a lerk is fun Adj because theres always the chance we might kill you, or you might make a mistake.
If someone is sitting in a hive, memorized the spawnpoints, you can't really expect individual skulks to do anything. On a pub you really can't expect amazing groupwork to stop this. True, if it happens that all the aliens were dead and therefore they couldn't reinforce their hive, then they're kind of screwed anyway. Its just not fun and very iritating to be spawncamped, and theres often nothing you can really do about it.
I think the spawncamping rules are a bit to tight, heres what I think they should be.
No spawncamping just to prolong the game.
No spawncamping if you don't have an objective in the hive that you can resonably expect to take out quickly(One marine trying to kill the hive RT, I don't see that as expecting to finish that quickly)
If you're doing something such as building seiges, or a PG, spawncamping is fine as long as you actuly build the seiges, PG, etc.
Running through the hive and killing skulks while you're there is fine, as long as you don't spend an exceptionally long ammount of time in there(Like, running through and stopping in the middle of the hive while running in circles slowly moving to the other side) and as long as you don't double back to the hive.
Well, Necrosis may be a yes man, but at least he realises the situation he is in. In a modern democracy, we take right of speech as a given, for example. In here it is a privilege that I can wantonly remove if I feel like it, and there won't be a damn thing you can do about it. Good luck finding a court that won't laugh you out, and nothing short of a court ruling can take power away from those that own the server (LB) and those that he gives power to. The very fact that I have not banned you from the forums for spoiling my good mood all the time with these inane debates makes me a good admin, at least in that sense. I'm not beyond a little bragging as far as this goes. I can be a bad admin if you will. I don't have any particular desire to be so, but I know the procedure.
You don't go into your friend's house and start mouthing off at his wallpaper and carpet, his horrible choice of furniture, the poor lighting and that he never cleans up. Well maybe you do, but if he doesn't want your opinion, he'll tell you to shut up. And what do you do then? Either you keep mouthing off until he throws you out, and it's likely that you'll cease being friends at that point. Or you accept the situation as it is, and either stay and deal with it or leave.
If you decide to leave, though, you're doing nobody a favour by standing just outside the door yelling to him why you're never coming back and so is no-one else and you don't care if he throws you out because you were leaving anyway right after shouting at him some more oh and his girlfriend is ugly too.
Necrosis is right insofar as he realizes this premise. He can make suggestions, and the host can heed or ignore them. He can leave at any time he wishes if he no longer likes the party, but he doesn't have the right to enforce his will over that of the host.
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No, we don't badmouth our friend's hosues.
However, if one of our friend's roomates askes 50 of his friends what could be changed to make the house better, and most of them think that the carpet needs changed, he has no right to say "It's my house, how dare you tell me to change!"
This thread has given us the right to speak our mind about the problems facing the server and the community. Archi opened a can of worms, and the recent poll in the spawncamping thread in the soapbox shows that most members would like the spawncamping rules rolled back some.
I think in reshuffling the community, we should look at reshuffing the admin staff as well. Ban-happy admins aren't fun for anyone. Admins like HD, Archi, formerly Ness, and recently Rad4Christ make the game fun, because they make their presence known without actually using kicks, bans, or other measures to affect gameplay except when needed.
I wonder if the admins that were mentioned the most in the anonymous complaints are those with the highest ban count, or at the very least, the ones that do the most saber rattling.
having been apart of the admin bureaucracy, i can honestly tell you that this thread won't go anywhere.
about reshuffling legion, they already started. me and 6 admins that none of you ever heard of because the never came onto lm were removed. progress is being made!
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wait, 6 other admins got the ax as well as you?
I'm fairly confident I know the vast majority of people in this community, so who else got removed?
QUAN, you had a point to make did you not?
[edit]
olo, looks like quan got bant
[/edit]
Keyser basically answered my part, but I'll add a bit more.
Theres uphill struggles, and then theres ramming your head at a wall. A good commander (or icky space alien) knows when the battle is lost.
But were going off on a tangent here.
I guess what Im trying to say is: you may claim that a spawncamper is artifically extending a game thats already over. Im responding by telling you that its also the spawncampee's fault for enduring it, when you have the handy button 4 keys to the right of Esc. Looking at it from this point of view, spawncamping is not a crime/exploit, and thus should not be a bannable offense.
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Bacon, the server doesn't allow F4ing, that isn't an option. And the rule isn't changing, they've tried it without that rule before.
So the spawncamping rule is there to patch up a problem brought in by yet another rule? :blink:
You can probably guess what my suggestion woulda been, but since they aint going to change that, I got nothing more to add.
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If your suggesting that they simply make a rule disallow stat whoring then your not thinking very clearly. It is the hardest possible thing to prove a person is doing, and is even more suseptable to admin bias then any other rule I can possibly think of.
So the spawncamping rule is there to patch up a problem brought in by yet another rule? :blink:
You can probably guess what my suggestion woulda been, but since they aint going to change that, I got nothing more to add.
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If your suggesting that they simply make a rule disallow stat whoring then your not thinking very clearly. It is the hardest possible thing to prove a person is doing, and is even more suseptable to admin bias then any other rule I can possibly think of.
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I believe he is referring to the rule against concession of the game.
I simply haven't seen the constant premature concessions that some people claim they saw in the absence of a such a rule. I played on a server for over a year-and-a-half that allowed F4'ing, and I found such incidences to be extremely rare. Extremely rare as in occurring only once or twice in my entire time playing there.
So the spawncamping rule is there to patch up a problem brought in by yet another rule? :blink:
You can probably guess what my suggestion woulda been, but since they aint going to change that, I got nothing more to add.
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If your suggesting that they simply make a rule disallow stat whoring then your not thinking very clearly. It is the hardest possible thing to prove a person is doing, and is even more suseptable to admin bias then any other rule I can possibly think of.
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I believe he is referring to the rule against concession of the game.
I simply haven't seen the constant premature concessions that some people claim they saw in the absence of a such a rule. I played on a server for over a year-and-a-half that allowed F4'ing, and I found such incidences to be extremely rare. Extremely rare as in occurring only once or twice in my entire time playing there.
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Every pub I've played in games end almost every time with the opposing team conceeding. I realize that many players don't want to wait around to be obliterated and see it as a waste of time, and I support thier right to belive so. But the fact reamains that I prefer to play a game as if the F4 function didn't exist, thus I am glad that there are at least some servers out there that do not allow premature consessions whatsoever. The primary function of the no spawncamping rule is twofold to prevent jackass style drawing out of long games and also to prevent stat whoring... The latter is probably the more problematic when it comes to translation of the spawncamping rule in my opinion...
Here's an idea, why not remove the rule entirely, add an umbra spawn protection for aliens and stop hindering gameplay? Hurrah! You see umbra spawn does what it says on the tin, aliens spawn in umbra. Lone marines can't spawn camp that unless the aliens are totally asleep and lets face it, they aren't going to win in that situation anyway so by not spawn camping and ending it quickly you're breaking the "dont drag a game out rule."
The rules are out of control and do nothing but hinder gameplay, i hate to have to stop and check myself to make sure by standing in this corridor or blinking in MS i'm not violating a certain rule and will end up with a post in the PR forum. That's not fun, that's a pain in the ass and when rules start to interfere with the game like that then you have an issue.
Agreed 100%. There needs to be game mechanism that deals with spawn campers instead of trying to enforce elaborate rules. There must be plugin that lets you change the duration of umbra/invunrability so we can get a compromise. If it makes hive rushes that little bit harder, then so be it. Marines can use GLs, siege, teamwork, whatever.
The whole issue of spawncamping has become sensitive to the point where we are made to feel guilty about protecting ourselves during a hive rush. Even if its 2 sgs on the hive and 4 lmgs only shooting the respawning skulks, so what? Thats called playing the game how it was designed, how it was intended to be played. If you find situations like that irrating then NS isnt your game.
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I think the main point of issue with that was that LB doesn't like the AMX plugins and will only use the adminmod (I know one of those is wrong, sorry I know nothing about admin plugins). If he feels one does a better job than the other that is an issue that I think is good enough as a "because I said so issue". What program a server runs should very much be the responsibility of the server owner... IIRC admin mod doesn't allow quite the customization that AMX does, and spawning units in an umbra cloud isn't possible to do...
Like I said before, spawncamping with the intent of spawncamping is somthing I simply don't want to see in the servers I play with. I don't think it is fair for a single marine to kill waves of spawning skulks, expecially if they are not getting a chance to move to cover or locate him before they are dying. A single marine honestly probably doesn't have any buisness whatsoever in a hive that involves any shooting, although on second thought that probably is a fairly big one...
To me, it has always been somewhat of an issue of decernment on the admins part. If the admin feels there is spawncamping going on then they should first make if very clear to whatever player is spawncamping that they are pushing the boundries... and it needs to be done with something asside from that purple pop up text crap, that stuff looks WAY to much like a server wide AMX announcement or something... I know I have myself mistaken several warnings directed at me in the past as wide announcements, (usually for FF, as I like to take the back row and pick off skulks as they swarm around my buddies ankles) they definitely don't feel like a warning anyways... If need be kick, or temp ban for ten minutes while in the act of spawn camping, but it is really the kind of action that can be done accidentally quite easily, and I know for a fact it will take may player a while to get used to simply avoiding actions that put them in a position where spawncamping is going to happen, there really doesn't need to be complex rules about it if the punishment for the crime is not so harsh. I would still like to see malicious and irepentant spawn campers banned, but I think banning anyone for accidental actions, even if the are repeditive, is going over the edge.
The primary function of the no spawncamping rule is twofold to prevent jackass style drawing out of long games and also to prevent stat whoring... The latter is probably the more problematic when it comes to translation of the spawncamping rule in my opinion...
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"jackass style drawing out of long games" is impossible when consession is allowed, and people know when and how to use it.
stat whoring...you guys actually take the stats seriously? I thought its a really informal thing. How is the rating calculated anyway?
So the spawncamping rule is there to patch up a problem brought in by yet another rule? :blink:
You can probably guess what my suggestion woulda been, but since they aint going to change that, I got nothing more to add.
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If your suggesting that they simply make a rule disallow stat whoring then your not thinking very clearly. It is the hardest possible thing to prove a person is doing, and is even more suseptable to admin bias then any other rule I can possibly think of.
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I believe he is referring to the rule against concession of the game.
I simply haven't seen the constant premature concessions that some people claim they saw in the absence of a such a rule. I played on a server for over a year-and-a-half that allowed F4'ing, and I found such incidences to be extremely rare. Extremely rare as in occurring only once or twice in my entire time playing there.
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Every pub I've played in games end almost every time with the opposing team conceeding. I realize that many players don't want to wait around to be obliterated and see it as a waste of time, and I support thier right to belive so. But the fact reamains that I prefer to play a game as if the F4 function didn't exist, thus I am glad that there are at least some servers out there that do not allow premature consessions whatsoever. The primary function of the no spawncamping rule is twofold to prevent jackass style drawing out of long games and also to prevent stat whoring... The latter is probably the more problematic when it comes to translation of the spawncamping rule in my opinion...
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Most pub players have little clue how to end the game, especially on the alien team. It takes 30 minutes to do something that should take about 5. I've seen 5-6 onos just sit outside ms and devour marines that leave because they're too clueless to realize simply running into MS en masse will present so many hitpoints that the marines literally can't kill them fast enough. In fact I would say most games end in a slow painful agony due to player incompetence. Few servers quickly end games, and the ones that do are the ones I normally populate. I know of another pub server that I generally consider the best because of it's competitive and common sense rules, yet the players aren't necessarily better than any other servers.
Believe it or not I have a sense of what's fun and what isn't in a game. I try to make the game enjoyable to everyone, alien and marine alike, regardless of what team I'm on and what I'm doing. I don't think I've ever sent a marine into a hive to spawncamp, I almost always send them to kill the RT or something else in the hive. My point in talking about spawncamping was there is a legitimate form that is to accomplish something and a form which is to simply delay the game. 2-3 marines sitting in the hive killing the RT isn't delaying the game, as they most likely have no ability to end the game by themselves. They are merely carrying out a small objective in order to help win the game, and often they'll get punished for it. If a spawncamping rule is going to be in place, at least make it very clear what is legitimate spawncamping and what isn't, there's a large difference.
My 2 second defintion for spawncamping. Killing spawning skulks before they have a chance to defend themselfs (weather that means getting behind the hive or attacking the offending marine) with no short term intention OR ability to destroy hive resourses.
Therefore: you aren't spawncamping you are running throught the hive
and shoot one skulk to death because you have not killed spawning skulkS
you aren't spawncamping if are nearly finished building a PG in hive when you defend yourself getting attacked
you aren't spawncamping sighting for sieges in any case
you aren't spawncamping killing spawnings skulks to cover you two buddies with SG's laying waste to hive (if there is an onos or fade in hive than it is his faulth that skulks are getting wasted, he should be killing the attacking marines)
you aren't spawncamping kinfing DC's in the hive, unless you buckle down and start shooting skulks before you have a reasonable chance of acctually killing the DC's
You are spawncamping defending a building PG at two red lines in hiveroom (unless there are 1-2 other marines there building it)
You are spawncamping peaking out behind corners and shooting spawning skulks from a distance
You are spawncamping putting pistol shots into the hive one by one just so you can shoot more skulks there
You are spawncamping if you run in shooting spawning skulks, start knifing something getting off two slashes before each new skulk spawns to you can immediately kill them
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decent, but what if you went to the hive to kill there RT, and someone kills a skulk in the field, and then it respawns next to you... I can't kill that skulk, even if I was there first? I should just let it come and kill me or what?
also Adj, I agree with the vast majority of what you said.
Its an advertising issue. Boo hoo if its part of anyone's tag. I don't think anyone can realistically construct an argument that would allow their tag to break the rules. I mean, I could go out tomorrow and start the *insert profanity here* clan and then throw a fit when I get banned from LM for obscenity in my tag. Tags don't mean that rules selectively apply. Its a big step away from naming everyone NSplayer by the way. It just means no adverts. Other people have adjusted by dropping the # sign, its not killing anyone to remove it. The rules say no adverts, so what the problem? You can't really complain about being punished for rule breaking.. its a ridiculous concept.[snapback]35478[/snapback]
He said he changed it to "POUNDcri.nner", so he did in fact remove the poundsign. He's complaining about not being allowed to follow the rules with the slightest shred of humour.
My 2 second defintion for spawncamping. Killing spawning skulks before they have a chance to defend themselfs (weather that means getting behind the hive or attacking the offending marine) with no short term intention OR ability to destroy hive resourses.
Therefore: you aren't spawncamping you are running throught the hive
and shoot one skulk to death because you have not killed spawning skulkS
you aren't spawncamping if are nearly finished building a PG in hive when you defend yourself getting attacked
you aren't spawncamping sighting for sieges in any case
you aren't spawncamping killing spawnings skulks to cover you two buddies with SG's laying waste to hive (if there is an onos or fade in hive than it is his faulth that skulks are getting wasted, he should be killing the attacking marines)
you aren't spawncamping kinfing DC's in the hive, unless you buckle down and start shooting skulks before you have a reasonable chance of acctually killing the DC's
You are spawncamping defending a building PG at two red lines in hiveroom (unless there are 1-2 other marines there building it)
You are spawncamping peaking out behind corners and shooting spawning skulks from a distance
You are spawncamping putting pistol shots into the hive one by one just so you can shoot more skulks there
You are spawncamping if you run in shooting spawning skulks, start knifing something getting off two slashes before each new skulk spawns to you can immediately kill them
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decent, but what if you went to the hive to kill there RT, and someone kills a skulk in the field, and then it respawns next to you... I can't kill that skulk, even if I was there first? I should just let it come and kill me or what?
also Adj, I agree with the vast majority of what you said.
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Yes you can kill that skulk, because you haven't yet killed any skulkS... Also you have the intention of destroying hive resourses. After killing the first skulk however you should pull out (since you know he will be respawning repeditively) unless you have knifed down the RT to the point where you actually have a good chance of killing it before you are killed (probably it would at least have to be in red to justify that point)... You should really pull out even if you expect other marines to follow you in, since you don't have an immediate intention of destroying hive resourses (you need to WAIT for other marines, thus your intention is not immediate)
Like I have been saying the whole time... It is complicated enough however you define it that it needs to be an issue up to admin decernment. And because it is a complicated issue up to admin decernment, the admins should be understanding to the fact that people will sometimes see the issue differently then them, or take a few times to really get what they mean in thier definition.
Even if you aren't showing the definition of "spawncamping" publicly, I think there should be an in depth definition accessable to the admins somewhere to prevent the phenomina that scooter blue made so clear was happening... Different admins ban hammering with compleatly differenet perceptions of the issue. Such actions not only confuse and threaten players, but they create bitterness among admins, expecially when someone trys to enact dicipline, and the player just turns around and quotes the actions of other admins pressing the belife that because other admins allowed their actions, they should be allowed to tow the line.
He said he changed it to "POUNDcri.nner", so he did in fact remove the poundsign. He's complaining about not being allowed to follow the rules with the slightest shred of humour.
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After the admins have experienced a bit of... less than sportsmanship like behaviour from folks who have broken the rules, the whole 'humour while following the rules but skirting it' is kinda tiresome. Just follow the rules and play.
The thing is, you don't need a # to advertise something, the # is immaterial and people have things in their name which advertise servers or learning programs but of course they're allowed. The guides having an icon that advertises their program, everytime someone asks "what's that icon?" and they reply "i'm a guide" it advertises NSguides but of course that's perfectly fine by the rules.
If the # is part of your tag then i don't think it should be removed because it's part of a IRC channel. That's like me adding www. to the start of my name and an admin saying well www. is part of a website and should be removed even though i'm advertising nothing.
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No #'s is not because of no advertising. The no # rule is there because the # in names screws up the server logs.
No #'s is not because of no advertising. The no # rule is there because the # in names screws up the server logs.[snapback]35920[/snapback]
Then why doesn't anyone say so when this is being enforced, and why was MrGunner punished for changing his name to POUNDcri.nner?
Creating such a rule will only mean people will insert swearwords before their name and then claim immunity because "ogm mah tag, j00 are discriminating, ololbbq!!11".
Yes. Just like people will change their names to swear words if we allow them to choose their own names.
...
this should be the rule.
"No marines may enter the hive during any point of the game because to many damn peope keep bitching about the damn thing instead of just enjoying the game."
THERE. I think THAT will fix it.
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Elegant solution!
this should be the rule.
"No marines may enter the hive during any point of the game because to many damn peope keep bitching about the damn thing instead of just enjoying the game."
THERE. I think THAT will fix it.
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Elegant solution!
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LM will become seige only, no rushing!
VIVA LA REVOLUTION
niteowl can be the leader of the puppet seige only government!
this should be the rule.
"No marines may enter the hive during any point of the game because to many damn peope keep bitching about the damn thing instead of just enjoying the game."
THERE. I think THAT will fix it.
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Nope, I got banned for spawncamping without ever being near the hive. I couldn't even see spawning skulks. :blink:
this should be the rule.
"No marines may enter the hive during any point of the game because to many damn peope keep bitching about the damn thing instead of just enjoying the game."
THERE. I think THAT will fix it.
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Nope, I got banned for spawncamping without ever being near the hive. I couldn't even see spawning skulks. :blink:
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Good point, we need to make it a 1000 unit distance away from all seige spots, that where there will be no camping whatsoever, and MS is untouchable unless the aliens can demonstrate the can end the game without camping.
okay seriously now, were getting a bit to off topic, lets attempt to rejuvenate the discussion before an admin does it for us
Don't forget that you aren't allowed to camp hive exits while your team is building sieges too as it is unfair. The skulks should be allowed to chew on the turret factory and turrets while they are being built. Heck how about just drop all guns before you leave marine start.
Just so I don't get banned this is a stupid joke. The point though is that we are supposed to leave the decisions on what exactly the rules mean up to admins that have in the past banned people for assinine reasons with little to no warning at all.
Also I was just wondering if I should auth when I join the server seeing as how my consti icon could be construed as an advertisement.
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Smarmy, grumpiness inducing type posts will incur likewise grumpiness towards you when you are on the server gunner.
Smarmy, grumpiness inducing type posts will incur likewise grumpiness towards you when you are on the server gunner.
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Hey remember that time I can't even get on the server because someone insta-perm-banned me with no warning the last time I tried to play there. Yeah that was awesome.
Actually, what he said was "If other admins have wonderful posts like Uranium's they want to put in here, go right ahead," in response to Uraniums three page, informative, well thought out post. I hardly think by "wonderful" posts he meant snide, threatening, one-sentence posts like:
Smarmy, grumpiness inducing type posts will incur likewise grumpiness towards you when you are on the server gunner
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You have a real problem with authority don't you.
*section removed because of vulgerness * Hoots wasn't being threatening, he was stating a fact. If someone says something that pisses you off on the forums, it's probably also going to piss you off on the server as well.
You have a deep set inability to read and understand most things, don't you?
And now, to balance out Scooter-Blue's irrational, moronic attitude, i for one welcome hoots to this thread and invite him to make any comments he so wishes to. You know why? Because i respect hoots as a player and a good person, not because he's an admin. I personally would read anything that he has to say ** Another section removed**
I hardly think flaming's going to add anything valuable to this thread.
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Crispy nailed it. Have your opinions, debate, argue, but keep it all respectful.
I don't know how long this has been here, and I don't know whether what I say matters at all or not anymore. But frankly, I'd like to put in my two cents.
When I joined this server, it had a reputation. It was a big server, heck, maybe even famous. But it was known for banning vets on small abuses, and for being fairly unlikely to allow new members to join the community.
Now, heck, I came to LM for a reason, and for the life of me I can't remember it now. But the reason I stayed was because I felt that no matter what reputation, and no matter what problems a server has, it's not about the server, or about the problems, or the admins, but the other people, the ones you play beside and meet, that make the server a COMMUNITY.
Maybe the admins are a little strict, I havent' been around too much. But I know I'd be strict, I know from forum modding in other places what my rules are. One warning, then action. Frankly, that seems best to me.
Maybe the people are leaving, maybe the game is getting worse. I dont' know, I don't play it to win all the time.
But I came to this place as a vet, and now I hold a res slot. Heck with what may or may not be happening, I'm here to stay, because this isn't just a server. LM is a community, and this community is what I have become part of, and here is where my friends are. That includes people on both sides of almost every arguement, from the lunacy of MrBill to the strict enforcements of Uranub.
This is LM, and nobody can really change where it's going. But you can definitely make a few friends as you ride the waves.
Edit: Feel free to argue, but games are for fun, and for friends. That's my view. But then, remember. I'm just a vet. ;)
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I agree with most of what you said here.
The one ammendment I would make is to say that although fast action is nessicary, 'action' doesn't nessicarily have to be a perma-ban, exspecially for accidental or unintentional offences.
Like you say, it's a community, and thus I think it is strange that many members are getting 'you screw up once your banned' treatment. Most people have bad days now and then, and most people make mistakes that may or may not push the limit.
I remember once reading through one of the old PR bans in which someone was trying to defend thier actions that got them banned. Because they were new they were kindof awkward in expressing themselfs and ended up contidicting statements they had made a couple times. The powers that be jumped on it and reemed the hell out of this guy. I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that you guys don't exactly go through an advanced trial process while you are banning people, I mean I have seen people banned bacause esuna accidentally misused the !admin command before; so if it is so possible for people to be wrongfully banned, why are you treating banned members like they are guilty until proven innocent and not the other way around?
I love the admins here, and respect them upmostly. It's a great group of people. But its hard to belive that the rare admin doesn't misuse thier powers occationally in the heat of the moment. I've never seen it personally (I don't play on the server that much) but alot of people seem to belive they have from reading archi's servey. Thus I conclude that the "We're always right because we say so" aditude is only hurting this server when it comes to public relation, because common opinons seems pretty clear that you might say your always right, but the public doesn't belive it.
I mean I have seen people banned bacause esuna accidentally misused the !admin command before;
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Hey now, i used the !admin command properly, it's there to request admin assistance on the server, which doesn't mean "ban from rcon without even bothering to check, nor talking to any other admins (bob) that were looking into it".
I never got to have my say on this issue, fool just washed over it, locked the PR thread and made another thread which was nothing but a blatant coverup for the fact that HE :Ded up, not me. I was not in the wrong, i did nothing but use !admin as it was intended, if anyone is to blame for being to hasty to ban without even bothering to check, it's fool, not me.
I mean I have seen people banned bacause esuna accidentally misused the !admin command before;
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Hey now, i used the !admin command properly, it's there to request admin assistance on the server, which doesn't mean "ban from rcon without even bothering to check, nor talking to any other admins (bob) that were looking into it".
I never got to have my say on this issue, fool just washed over it, locked the PR thread and made another thread which was nothing but a blatant coverup for the fact that HE :Ded up, not me. I was not in the wrong, i did nothing but use !admin as it was intended, if anyone is to blame for being to hasty to ban without even bothering to check, it's fool, not me.
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Sorry, I didn't really pay any attention to who's fault it was or whatnot, I wasn't trying direct blame at you, quite the opposite really. The point still stands however, admin actions clearly aren't always flawless.